96

Give Founders and Co-Founders of Groups unlimited access to suggesting/adding deviations to their own groups

The recent idea to limit all Groups users to 10 submissions per day to all galleries in a Group is having unintended consequences. I'm the Founder (and so far only admin) of my group, and though it's not very big and not super-active, it adds a handful to a couple dozen images per day, mostly because of my requests. By restricting the my ability to ask for images, you've made it very difficult for my group to attract more watchers and members, especially if I am in competition with groups that have ten or twenty admins.

Also, the fact that this limitation was put in place without any announcement or warning makes me very uncomfortable. This change has affected my ability to manage my group; what might the next unannounced change do?

I understand the desire to limit spam, but there are ways to limit spam without putting an unnecessary restriction on the people who just want to create Group galleries and attract like-minded viewers to them. The submission limits that were there were perfectly usable, and it's not as if someone who was getting too many submissions couldn't change the setting to a lower number. And if the problem is that some deviants were getting too many requests for their artwork from a single Group, perhaps you could allow deviants to block particular Groups' ability to request deviations from them, similar to the blocking functionality already in place for other deviants.

The decision that was made feels completely arbitrary, and I am worried that future decisions, if they are not discussed with the community ahead of time, may further cripple our ability to enjoy this site and use its features in satisfying ways.

107 comments

  • 3
    Avatar
    ianwh

    Restrictions restrictions are fine but they should be consulted upon first, maybe they would not get them through. Have they thought this through I don't think so and I hope Eben you are successful with your plight against this act  imposed upon you as a founder of the group.

  • 3
    Avatar
    kg177

    I bet there's a technical possibility to make the submission limits somehow depend on the number of declines in a particular group. If they were to limit the unnecessary traffic, they should rather check who creates traffic and get hold of them but not affect everybody all over. I understand that some deviants may be annoyed by some groups' requests but personally I've never experienced anything like that, no complaints whatsoever.

    Incidentally, I was a victim of another DA staff "invention" for almost entire 2015 - I've been unable to send invitations to new members in one of my groups, reported a bug and they've explained this is not a bug but a genuine policy: I apparently have had too large number/percentage of declines. Many emails have been exchanged with DA support to no avail. The restriction has finally been lifted all of a sudden, exactly the same manner as introduced...

  • 3
    Avatar
    existentialdefiance

    They could have simply asked.

  • 4
    Avatar
    Eric-was-here

    Like Communism/Socialism the theory sounds wonderful... BUT doesn't work that way in practice.

    They Lie about it stopping Spam.. I can say that because ANY founder who's group is "spammed" just deletes whats there or doesnt accept the works and then changes the filtering process for regular members.. thats SOP for any founder for any group. So saying it it to combat spam is the purest baldfaced lie.

    The 2nd is their claim to have researched this? really/ when? how? where is that research? why not show it ( assuming they have it) and announce this change rather than just implement it on the sly and then claim various reasons after the fact? The reason is they don't HAVE any research to show any of this. I know this because I speak with more than one founder of more than one group and none of us have heard anything about this before it happened.. We all agree about handling any spam and never have complained about people doing such in our groups for the simple fact that being our groups WE are and did handle it ourselves without any whining to DA. that after all IS part of our JOB...
    Oh and one last thing...
    Given the benefit of the doubt.. perhaps they MAY implement a limit to what group members could do in a group... BUT where does that mean anything for contributors, Co-founders and founders? after all they are the Admins of that group and are/were made admins for a reason ( cuz they could say be trusted NOT to spam the groups they run???0 So placing universal limit on submissions even for admins doesn't make any sense.. Just take a founder.. It is his/her group.. THEY made the thing and if they want 1000 pieces of whatever in it that's their choice. As it is DA is saying that the admins do not have any say over what or in what quantity  the persons own group can have or do. In effect taking away the admin rights of the founder of they group and reducing him to just above a member in his/her own group.

    Bottom line this whole thing is a behind the back lie about the reasons to do something and they cannot back up that lie in any way.
    It has been suggested by another friend of mine ( who is also a founder of her own group) that the reason they are doing this is tied to the price increase they tried to pass of as Core. They are losing money and we all know they have done nothing to update the website or the servers and that's prolly the problem. They cannot afford the bandwidth of the servers because of all they money they have lost thru "core" and other platitudes they pull ( try complaining about harassment, or sexual perversions , stolen art, or anything else a decent administrator team would handle. They have proven they will do NOTHING but send you a FAQ link and say "too bad so sad just block them and move on".
    In short nothing gets done here unless it is tied directly to income. They have lost HUGE amounts with the "core" fiasco and are shedding members left and right because they do nothing to keep people here except hold out the hand for more money.

    The fact is without groups such as mine and many others who have active founders who care about what happens in those groups and actively search/request art specific to the groups criteria DA is headed the same way as Myspace when they switched to the whole "Celebrity" format. Without groups to showcase "good" art and the admins who search that art out daily, there will be only two groups left. The "Elite" groups that show ONLY the art by "established" people and nothing else ( how can they with a 10 submission max limit) and no one will care since everyone will know it's just those people showing off their own stuff and page views will plummet and the artist will see that and stop submitting when the groups dont have anyone watching anymore OR you will have "all request groups" that take every piece anyone wants to submit and whatever artwork is posted there will be lost among every other piece and no one will know whats is there or even there is a reason to look. The 3rd alternative is the "DA search" But who wants to take the time to look up such things? that's another nitch groups filled since people "watched" groups that posted art they were interested in without trying to sort thru all the junk.. that's what group Admins ALREADY did for them.

    Now without groups showcasing a persons art everyone here will have to fall back on their own profile pages.. and no one will know what they post since there is no stable groups ( other than the two I mentioned) who will be showcasing their works.. so they will not get the free PR that the groups provide. Now this prolly wont effect those who post anything from their 3 year olds cow drawing or similar art... But for those who take what they do seriously there will  no longer be a way to allow others and new people to see what they do.
    Now do you think a serious artists is going to stand for that little return on their works and continue to post it here or will they say "screw this" and accelerate the abandonment of the whole site leaving it to those who post nothing but selfies and Cow drawings.
    THEN lets see DA get "core" membership or any money from those people after the rest pull up stakes. So in essence DA is shooting itself in the head doing this and then trying to justify it by baldfaced lies.

  • 2
    Avatar
    BraveMoonGirl

    they should of made a poll or something. The update is stupid.

  • 3
    Avatar
    01309

    While I dislike the changes implemented with this new limit of a max of 10 per day as a group moderator, I find it terrible that there was no notification about these changes in some form of announcement or change log journal letting us know about these changes being implemented.  As a group founder sometimes I need to help members with their submissions, such as when there is a misclick in voting on a submission; I have to manually request that artwork which uses up 1 out of 10 on my limit.  They perhaps just did a blanket change because it was easier than having to add in a specific exemption for group moderators.

     

    Their reasoning of "reducing spam" feels false.  If a member of watcher of a group felt like they were getting spam, they could leave/unwatch that particular group.  I've not really seen "group spam" other than the creation of groups for spam purposes from those annoying spam account themselves.  I would be fine with removing the unlimited option and even the 1000, but not the 100 limit.  

    And for them to state it will help clear notification clutter... are groups now considered clutter?  And what future enhancements?  They've never done much for groups since their release.  There was a promise of a donation widget to help support groups and keep them a super group, that never happened.  It seems they are simply becoming more restrictive and not really developing groups as a feature.

  • 0
    Avatar
    PlantFeathers

    I understand their reasons for putting these limitations in place, but what bothers me the most is that it went completely unannounced so we didn't know it was coming.

     

    Though to be honest, I don't really think this change was really needed. If people were getting too many group submission notifications, it's easy to unwatch the group's deviation feed and browse the gallery in their own time. While it's nice to see that groups are getting updates behind the scenes, it isn't in the areas where it's most needed. We still don't have a search function for group galleries, and I think this is something that would benefit group admins, members and visitors alike.

  • 2
    Avatar
    QueenWerandra

    "And if the problem is that some deviants were getting too many requests for their artwork from a single Group, perhaps you could allow deviants to block particular Groups' ability to request deviations from them, similar to the blocking functionality already in place for other deviants."

    You can already block groups in exactly the same way as other deviants, so if they're saying that's the problem, it's not a problem at all. Not sure if it's officially mentioned anywhere on dA, as I tried Googling several variants of "how to block DeviantArt groups from requesting your art", and the results pretty much all linked to how to block regular deviants. 

    Eventually I tried it on my own and it worked. I used to get repeated requests all the time from multiple similar groups I did not want my work included in, probably from the same person. I declined them every time and sent polite notes to the group to please stop requesting my work, and when that didn't work, I copied the name of the group like a regular username and added it to my block list. 

    Viola! No more requests from those groups. If they try to request your art anyway, they're met with this error: "Sorry, this group is blocked by the author of the deviation."  I'm not sure what else it limits, besides not allowing you to comment on the group's front page with the "We're sorry, but you cannot post a comment here." error. 

    As for the actual topic at hand, I agree with pretty much everything everybody else said. The 10 a day limit was a bad choice, and it was really crappy of dA to sneak it in quietly and not even publicly let users know it happened. 10 is a very low number, even for mid-sized groups, let alone large ones. If they changed the limit to 50 or even 30, I could understand hiding behind reducing spam, but 10 including your own work in your own groups? Seriously?

    From what I've seen from various dA replies to users, it seems like they're counting on 
    members to do the adding. Eric-Huffman posted a journal with a reply from dA about it, and here is an excerpt from that: 

    "This means you can add 10 per day, each of your admins could add 10 per day, and each of your members could add 10 per day. If you have your group settings maxed out to allow 10 deviations into a group per day for each class and you have 100 people in your group that is 1,000 deviations being delivered to a watchers notification centre every day."

    I hate to be the bad guy and say that, in general, most regular members of groups don't do too much adding other than their own work, so the limit sort of makes sense, but for contributors and founders/co-founders, this is just really stupid. Their reply makes it seem like they're counting on other users to fill up the group, but what about small groups, or those mainly managed by only one person? 

    Also, "that is 1,000 deviations being delivered to a watchers notification centre every day."
    If a group is making too many notifications cluttering up your inbox, simply unwatch group deviations, as other users have said.

    Sort of good (but unneeded) idea, but extremely poor choices in executing it, especially by not telling users what's up. 

  • 2
    Avatar
    Sasukeleean

    With the new rules on DA, I fear that I future unfortunately can not continue my group, too.

    My group is very important to me.
    I invest a day about an hour to gather all the most beautiful bodysuit pictures for my members.

    But with only 10 images a day, to me this is no longer possible.
    Especially since even images are counted, which must be requested repeatedly.

    Maybe it would be an idea to give Deviants this option:


    1. everyone can add my images to their group without request


    2. everyone can add my images to their group with request (like it actually is)


    3. no one can add my images to a group

  • 3
    Avatar
    ebenbrooks

    This is awful. This feeling is awful! I want to request images for my group! I want my group to thrive. I want its watchers to have deviations to admire and favorite. But even if I weren't putting a moratorium on submissions, the 10-a-day limit is stifling. It feels like, having once had a grand feast before me and being told "eat what you like", I am now before the same grand feast and being told "you get ONE plate, period." Even if the food is exactly the same, I won't enjoy it nearly as much knowing how much of it I won't ever get to try.

  • 2
    Avatar
    MTLs-Imaging

    This is a disgrace! After all the money we pay here and they pull this crap. I've just been effected by this new "regulation". They REALLY need to stop being so greedy and put the artist first!

     

    I'm going to spread the word...

  • 1
    Avatar
    crcarlosrodriguez

    I think this site is dying since 5 years ago, even the web design of the entire site looks pretty old in comparison with the web design of today, with respect of the issue about the groups, i think the worst thing about all this situation is when they take desicions without ask to the DA community, slapping straight on your face after you did many payments for subscriptions. 

  • 1
    Avatar
    lucsurr

    Restriction control should be left to group admin… This change is a complete non-sense! :fork:

  • 1
    Avatar
    MeFlysBySeatOfPants

    I support the viewpoint that restrictions should be left to the group administrators.  I am not an administrator but am a member of several groups and somewhat of a new member here at DA.  I am also a CORE member, however, so my money has gone to support this website.   From what I am able to understand of this situation with limited knowledge of it, the recent restrictions placed on group administrators will merely hamper growth of newer and smaller groups, and most likely lead to fewer new groups being established.  Isn't this counter productive to the whole concept that Deviant Art stands for--the chance to get your work out to other artists and those that appreciate art?  The chance to mingle (so to speak) with those who have like interests?  In my short experience here, I have actually searched out smaller groups, because I have the time then to review others work and comment on those, instead of being bombarded with a massive amount of submissions that come from larger groups.  If you note, on larger groups, many of the members drop their "watch" capability, which again defeats the whole purpose of groups and group-support.  A member of a group should be supporting it's group members.  I also feel that when administrators are not informed of changes, especially when they donate their time to improve this site, it can only lead to the sites demise.  Your website is only as good as the people within it, so your communication between these people should be a priority.

  • 1
    Avatar
    UAkimov09

    I do respect work of admin cause you know he adding artworks of other , he commenting those artworks , he share those artworks with other and in the end those people whom he find they became more interesting to group which he created and just forget about his own works... and he often used his own time that add / comment and just support their pictures... so he posted his new works not often.. and even he have 700 watchers they not think that need to come to admin (founder) and look and support his photos / drawings... esspecially if he posting anything only about Nice , Interesting and Light things... and his groups support and promote Respect , Care and being Friendly and Tolerant to everything what have Life.. why they start to do like this ? forget about me.. well as they wish , i anyway will continue to support and raise up popularity of artworks made in Traditional Positive way that promote movement of Greens , of Green Peace organization , of Healthy style of Life and about everything Nice , Cute and Light ! I never added any picture about spam to mine groups. I understand Admins of Deviant Art if them hardly to manage Deviant Art... I understand this is very hard work.. But just one phrase about those limits , founder it is not just some member , he created group , he put his own time in it , he  gave alternative to other people that see nice and light things without scare to see rude . nude or mature pictures which they also not want to see... he should to have rights on even more big size to sumbit to group from 1 to 50 cause he is not just a simply member... this could to be fair... 

    This limitation making me sadly , Admins of Deviant art im sure that you all also have groups which were founded by you... so how it is now for you ?? you also got such limits or not ? Do you like those new limits ? Or you still have old rules and all other ... its their problems... not nice so do...

    Please listen to members , contributors , co-funders and founders ! Please try to improve system of groups that stop spam but in same time allowe people use groups as it was before...

    Sorry from my english , my native lang is ukrainian and russian. Good day and Calm evening to everyone !

  • 1
    Avatar
    StevieNylon
    If they tell us that they did it to reduce the "spam" it's simply a lie. Why did they restrict the submissions to favourites too? If I add a pic to group favs there is no request for approval to the artist, no "spam".

    And, if anybody would try to spam my group with inadequate pics...than it's my job as an admin to kick him out.

    My first consequence today was to cancel the rebilling of my core account. ;-) If they want my money they have to be friendly.
  • 2
    Avatar
    Vad-mig-orolig

    ...DA seems so much like the teacher that couldn't figure out who the class-culprit was, so they made the whole class stay after..

    So, cut the crap and let's back to art!

  • 1
    Avatar
    supersnappz16

    I think group submission limit changes are a very bad idea.  Especially when Admins want to add members art to their groups.  This is already causing a major upset, and groups closing down because of this silly rule change.  Such settings should be left to group admins.  I just do not see the point to this.

  • 1
    Avatar
    Keyshe54

    For myself personally it was a very abrupt change that is limiting, I can't always get on and make request for art for my groups, when I do it's a large group for many artists (not one), that take days to even be seen. With out groups art just isn't seen, it's distressing that it happened with out letting us know and to have to worry if it's a bug and not know what is happening.

     

    It's an extreme limit from what we all had before, would be helpful at least to raise it or, a queue that limits it but allows founders ect, to still request submissions freely.

  • 1
    Avatar
    Limnoria

    deviantArt, I think it's time we sat down and had a long talk.  The past three or four big decisions you've made have been executed in a totalitarian manner without consultation from your wider fanbase, and you need to stop acting like a bratty, petulant child.  If you're going to play the "my way or the highway" game, I'll be gone in ten seconds flat.  Bet on it.

  • 0
    Avatar
    Sasukeleean

    Unfortunately, I have now reached the day on which I already have 11 images for the "round" tomorrow ... :(

  • 1
    Avatar
    Shadoweddancer

    Of all the things that could be developed for groups, this is not one of them.  As I mentioned on the comments on another forum, I know few groups where the founder spams the members with their own art, and if that happens, there is always the option to turn deviations off in the feed. This change will cripple new and groups with few admins from expanding their galleries through invitations.  From what I understand, this limit also includes favorites to the group.  Supergroups pay a lot of money for that privilege, but I have already heard three different admins of super groups that have told me they will not renew their status when it is up.  The main reason is more because DA went ahead and did this without so much as a note to anyone.  In fact, when they first initiated it, there was a glitch that set the limit at one per person which was very alarming for everyone.  

    l personally am getting tired of popular websites making major changes without notifying their members then ignoring numerous complaints like their members don't matter. (Anyone that frequents Pinterest knows what I'm talking about.)  DA is bleeding paying members, at least my friends are dwindling, and I don't see this ending if the admins of DA keep pulling moves like this. 

  • 1
    Avatar
    Jim52-Photoworks
    My feeling is that the best groups tend to act as curated portals to viewership. Without substantive numbers of new deviations being added on a daily basis, the single-founder-run groups will die off; perhaps that is even the intention of DA management, because it's certainly not spam-control, in spite of representations otherwise. My problem is that my work generally does not get selected for submission to the "super-groups" so without these other groups, my work will decline in viewership even faster than it already is - even as it improves. Not sure what's going on with DA and DA management, but it's been represented to me that DA doesn't value photography.
  • 1
    Avatar
    Rubina1970

    Seriously, letting a user submit more than 10 works a day to a group has nothing to do with spam: there are groups that decide to put a limit to it, and groups that might appreciate it because they are still starting and want to enlarge quickly their gallery. But that's not that important.

    What matters is that administrators of groups should be absolutely free: for them it's important to be free to fulfil the submissions they get, it's obvious! Mostly if they are the only admin of the group. Apart other considerations, I guess they love their group, and they just want to make everyone feel at ease in it; they must feel so uncomfortable, now, and it's awful because a group is a personal creation for an admin, and a one's own site is like home. A group is not a site, but it resembles it.

  • 1
    Avatar
    werewolfsfan

    As an admin for several groups, going on several years at each, I'm appalled that dA would institute a change like this without asking!  And I find it very telling that there was no announcement of it either!  BAD WEBSITE! 

  • 1
    Avatar
    tman300

    This will severely limit group admins from requesting group appropriate pieces they run across while browsing. I for one have often requested 15 or more pieces for inclusion into my groups. This is indeed an unfortunate decision by the powers that be.

  • 1
    Avatar
    fuguestock

    Wondered why I was having this problem. I spend half an hour every lunch break searching new submissions for niche stock images for my stock group. Some days there are are just 1 or 2 images. Some days there are 20. Now on those days only half the images make it to my group. This makes me very sad. 

    I'm actually quite angry about admins being limited with what they can do with their own groups. I can't see a whit of logic in it. Who was asking for this kind of change?

  • 0
    Avatar
    fuguestock

    Also angry that I had to search for a week to find out what was going on!

  • 1
    Avatar
    Meccaphi

    It's not unreasonable to have a limit on group submissions - there have been a few groups sending out a very large number of requests - but the limit of 10 is much too low. A daily limit of say 30 or 40 would deal with any issues, without making it so difficult for smaller groups with fewer administrators to get established. The policy is unnecessarily restrictive and it should be re-thought.

  • 2
    Avatar
    Stygma

    This limitation will kill new groups as well! The only way for new groups to be known is to request artworks! And I don't know many people who can actually get on DA every day to request art and find thrust worthy admins to help them, especially when founding a new group.

    I feel this change will just encourage people to make more dead accounts just to have more "admin power" to their groups. 

    Yes, group traffic might go slower (but I've seen little change so far) but also the revenue of super groups. Many super groups are community oriented groups relying on requests and if they die because of this limitation, here goes the revenue as well. 

Please sign in to leave a comment.